SolarRoofinstall

GE: Cutting Residential Solar Costs in Half

Despite all of the excitement about the declining cost and increasing performance of photovoltaic solar, the nation’s homeowners have been lackadaisical about putting panels on their roofs. Last year, there were a record 40,000 residential solar installations in the U.S., but that number is a tiny fraction of the 130 million total homes in the country.

A team of engineers from General Electric, the sponsor of this magazine, want to increase the number of homes with solar roofs by halving the cost of a standard 5-kilowatt (KW) installation, which can provide about 85 percent of the average home’s electricity needs.

The project, called the Smart Grid Ready Residential Solar System, partners GE Global Research and its Industrial Solutions businesses with the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority (NYSERDA). The goal is to put 10 easy-to-install, low-cost systems on roofs in Syracuse and Albany by August.

Meanwhile, a similar project in San Diego — which is part of a separate program called the California Solar Initiative – has crews performing energy audits on 10 homes, in addition to the rooftop solar installations. The project is a partnership with San Diego Gas & Electric.

Both projects are the result of the engineers’ detective work into why solar is so expensive to install, said Charles Korman, the chief technologist for solar energy at GE Global Research. It isn’t the manufacturing cost of the technology: “Solar is as cheap as it’s ever been,” he said. Rather, it’s because there are so many different products available for rooftop arrays that every job is effectively a custom installation. And then there are the high labor costs. Most systems require specially trained electrical contractors to connect high-voltage systems.

The need for highly specialized labor and custom installations drives up the installed cost of solar to about $7 per watt nationwide, or roughly $35,000 for a 5 kW installation, before government incentives.

Korman wants to bring the cost down to about $21,600 or between $4 – $4.50 per watt. To achieve this goal, GE would offer a standardized kit that includes modules that output low-voltage alternating current (AC) power instead of the high-voltage direct current (DC) power of most modules. Roofers and electricians can safely install these lower voltage systems on standardized mounts, eliminating the high cost of installation.

“The installations will require just the tools and skills of ordinary roofers and electrical contractors,” he said.

Homeowners who participate in the new program will also receive a GE Nucleus home energy management system that displays how much electricity the array is generating, and how much appliances are using.

If the project is financed with a low-interest home equity loan, the homeowner’s electricity bill savings will more than offset the monthly loan fees, Korman said. “The roofing industry does 7 million rooftop retrofits a year,” he noted. “The key is to get solar panels on as many of those roofs as possible.”

Top image: Courtesy Webshots user chabagan

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Comments

  1. arthur s comrie

    interested in installing home rooftop panels

    • Harold Stopher

      In 1978 I built a Solar Home in Ill. It was a hot air system, I had 400 sq. ft. of mobile home siding painted black, 2 – 1/2 HP blowers blowing air over the panels. The air was ducted to the basement, to a 12 x 20 x 7 foot area with 85 tons of washed river rock. In the dead of winter with the temp at 0 degrees, the panels would reach a temperature of 156 degrees, w the air coming off of them at 120 degrees, my highest utility bill for one month was $100.00 for one month for a 2500 sq ft house. the walls were 9 inches thick, w triple glazed windows, and 13 inches of insulation in the attic, Due to high interest rates in 1978 I lost everything. I was paying 21 % on my loan, just couldn’t make it.

      • Elliot

        Exactly why you can’t touch the roof of a black car on a sunny winter day, the 156 degree surface will burn your hand.

      • Greg

        Such a system is of little use throughout many parts of the country that have no need of heating their house. In the south, it is cooling that is the problem. Cooling is a fundamentally more difficult problem than heating.

        The base consumption for my house is around 4 kWh/day. During the summer, my electric consumption goes to over 40 kWh/day (that is with a reasonably efficient AC unit set to 82 deg). The wide disparity is one of the deterents to installing solar PV–a small system would provide excess power during fall through winter, but it would make only a small dent in summer bills.

        • John Evangelisti

          In the South and Midwest an energy savings arrangement has been in use for centuries, and nothing man made has ever been found as effective in reducing residential energy consumption. It is called mature annual trees. They shade in the Summer and loose leaves to let in sunlight in the Winter. The downside is cleaning up the leaves in Fall. You can do the energy load calculations or try out a house with trees and pretty much reach the same conclusion, Solar Voltaic can’t compete. Think $90 electric bills in an Ohio Winter and even lower cooling costs for a typical 1800 sq ft ranch house.

          New subdivisions have the trees cleared to lower construction costs. It is a rip off for the home buyer that is stuck with no shade in the Summer. Here Solar voltaic panels might make sense. Out West in the desert they make sense.

        • Paul Randall

          Look into ground source geothermal heat pumps for cooling.

        • Joe ALDERMAN

          Check out phase change materisl. It cools in the summer and warms in the winter. It is not insulation.

          Thanks,

          Joe Alderman
          Alderman Research Ltd.

        • Blackbeered

          Neither heating nor cooling is difficult or expensive.

          Put your 2,500 sq ft home on a slab that’s 20 feet underground. Then your utility costs to heat and cool drop to less than $20/month.

          Next best … a geothermal system … where the coils are buried 20 feet underground. Utility costs double to $40/month to H/C

      • Dan

        Who cares what happened in 1978. Get real guy.

        • Rob Denehy

          The laws of thermodynamics haven’t changed.

        • Joe

          Dan, Harold is right, you are wrong. The largest solar collector on earth is the earth. And the cost is part of your deed. Ground water is a constant temperature year round, where ever you live. A ground water heat pump is simple and affordable where ever you live. The refrigeration unit in any refrigerator is much more complicated.

          A BTU, British Thermal Unit, is the amount of heat added to or taken away from a pint of water to raise or drop the temperature one degree fahrenheit. ‘A pint is a pound the world around’. Perhaps you can come up with a similarly simple joules per cubic centimeter reminder? Raise or lower the water temperature for cooling or heating with a heat pump and your done. It is the least expensive, least complicated, method of heating or cooling a building. GE’s solar deal sounds good to me as a backup, except for the DC to AC conversion thing, that Westinghouse corrected over Edison’s objection 100 years ago.

          I installed a GWHP(Ground Water Heat Pump) in my house and gave it to my new wife for xmas in 1981…I rebuilt the heat pump (compressor and ground water exchanger) last year after 30 years. My wife is doing well too. I don’t know if we’ll make it for another 30 years, but that’s my goal.

          Most Contractors recommend interconnected dry well holes, or Slinkys, or some other very expensive method of heat exchange than a simple inexpensive water well. There was a time when this seemed noble, don’t rape the earth? But with the plague of Marcellus well drilling and polluting of the ground water, who should care; I’m not aware of any (not a single one) polluted GWHP wells in the past 30 years.

          Joe

      • Sandy

        Did you EVER get your money back because right now I’m on part natural gas and part wind and I’m paying about $150.00 per month with two air conditioning units running.

    • Dan

      The only thing GE is doing is putting DC to AC converters inside of each solar panel so there doesn’t have to be a transformer. No big deal. You can already buy panels like this. It is still going to be controlled by local electrical code and require special permits and special installers. Nice try GE.

    • Vic

      Keep drinking your own koolaid, GE

      $7/watt down to $3.5/watt?

      We’re gonna eat your lunch!

    • DelS

      The loan payments on my solar roof I had installed(attracted all black Sunpower panels installed by Ameco solar in the L.A. area) is about the same $350/month that I spend on my electricity. My bill hovers around $0. And if it did not, the $20-30,000 appreciation my house will get when I sell, will make up the difference.

      “For the average installation, the authors found that solar panels added a $20,194 premium to the sales price of the house based on repeat sales data (houses were in the mid-$500,000 range). Solar is really expensive to install—the average total system cost is $35,967, but the effective price to homeowners with subsidies including the federal tax credit is $20,892. Thus, homeowners appear to recover approximately 97% of their investment costs – in addition to the savings associated with reduced energy bills.”

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2011/08/01/how-much-do-solar-panels-boost-home-sale-prices/

  2. Hubert Davis

    How about solar-thermal to offset home and swimming pool heating costs. Almost thirty years ago, I built and operated solar-assisted heat pump systems with a simple spray-bar water cooling system that worked well in the Houston area.

    My pool was swimmable without additional heating for about 3 months longer than my neighbors and summer pool temperature did not go even one degree above theirs.

    GE should design and market such a system to home pool owners. I purposely filed no patents on it.

    Hu

    • S O’Dell

      I saw your comment. Any chance you’d be willing to share the desigin? I’d love to install something like that.

    • Rivenburg

      I have seen several pool heater system many years ago, to a man the owners had mis-installed them and destroyed them. All had come with heat exchangers to transfer the heat from the anti-freeze circulating in the panels to the pool water. All heat exchangers were ignored and strait pool water with chlorine was circulated through aluminum solar panels, eventually destroying them.
      IMHO the BEST invention for pools would be either stainless steel or some version of plastic that can handle the chlorinated water. I used to collect old solar hot water panels left for the city to pick up in alleys in PHX, they were ALL full of corrosion pinholes.
      That said, several I reused by re-plumbing with black PVC would actually generate steam in the summer, I had two configurations, summer = in parallel, Winter = in series. Otherwise in winter the pool water would not get hot enough, and in summer, serious STEAM pressure would blow the hoses off the panels.

    • Coast Ranger

      This isn’t a new idea. A Boy Scout camp I went to 40 years ago had a simple solar heater for their swimming pool. We were able to use the pool for several months longer than was typical. As I remember, there was a large shallow box with a network of pipes. Water was pumped from the pool through the pipes and back. It was simple but effective. Why can’t someone develop a turnkey package like that for home use?

      • Aaron Browne

        To answer your questions: -because most people like to say “How come no one will do this?”, instead of “How can I do this?”.

    • James Kronewitter

      Hubert, Please contact me about your design/ideas for Solar-thermal swimming pool heating. Is you heat pump system able to heat the home as well???

  3. Baba

    In a culture where instant gratification is the mantra it is very difficult to get people to realize the potential for savings over time. They wan savings now and thats ingrained into their psyche. Educating the masses is difficult when Businesses like G.E. would prefer to deal with a population hat is un-educated, easier to sell crap to them than to them.
    G.E. would have to educate at the community level the benefits & cost savings to convince the ignorant to change.

    • Mike Brosch

      Not so. The problem is that solar companies have consistently sold and installed under performing systems at noncompetitive prices. The system needs to cost $3.00 a watt and have a life of 20 years.
      Ideally, your roofing would be your collector, and since the larger the house the larger the collector and the more electricity you would use it makes sense.
      Anyone out there working on photo-voltaic roofing shingles?

      • Aaron

        Dow Chemical in midland Michigan is building a plant for this as we speak.

      • Lee Smith

        “Ideally, your roofing would be your collector, and since the larger the house the larger the collector and the more electricity you would use it makes sense. Anyone out there working on photo-voltaic roofing shingles?”

        Yes. And thanks for asking. I’m interested in this for my roof as well.

        http://www.hgtvremodels.com/home-systems/get-solar-power-without-changing-your-roof-line/index.html

        http://www.oksolar.com/roof/

        • Jay Marx

          Re: “Solar Shingles”, a company called Unisolar, a joint Venture of Energy Conversion Devices (Minn. ?) and a european Co. has had them out for over 5 years. Sold thru installers at home shows in So. Calif. I was ready to quit my job in another field to sell these,(Really neat- they’re flexible!) but the ‘Rep” jerked me around on the Ind. Contr. agreement and I walked. A MAJOR problem in So. Calif. is that it took state and Federal rebates/ credits to make the deal, and rebates either got logjammed in the beareaucracy (L.A.) or the $$$ ran out (CA). I suspect the labor costs(and profit) are the biggest part of the ticket,and the “special training” is more bureacratic certs than anything closer to rocket science than regular electric work. I was told in LA they were mandating streetfront ‘safety cutoffs’ that no other area seemed to need, courtesy of Union influence on the city politicos. Anyway back to the flexible panels- you can even get small panels for small projects from Grainger and others. One other point to ponder is that most panels last 15-20 yrs before OUTPUT DROPS. Don’t know if this has been overcome.

      • Dan Downey

        Solar shingles are available. However, they’re extremely inefficient and cost ineffective. Best bet is to integrate amorphous thin film with a standing seam metal roof which we have done here: http://www.weatherfordplace.com. The pictured house is Georgia’s first Platinum LEED certified house and has a HERS rating of 37. Need to do it when you build or replace your roof. Not visible in the pics is a solar thermal water heating system beneath the standing seam roof that heats hot water. 4000 square foot house first year total utility bill was $153.00 and we used the power from the pictured house to build the second one.

        For retrofits, we’ve invented a system (patent pending) that has solar pv and solar thermal combined in one panel. Panels are available in 4′ X 18′ and 4′ X 9′. 2 of the smaller panels will cut your electric bill by 25% and give you all the hot water for a 2500 square foot house with 2 adults and 2 kids (pretty much eliminating the cost of heating hot water). Most people don’t know it, but heating hot water is the single most energy intensive thing you do. This system (2 panels) would cost you approximately $6000 and in most states pay back in less than 2 years with incentives and tax credits. You can up the number of panels you put on your roof if you like as it’s modular and panels do come without the thermal component.

      • kc

        DOW – powerhouse solar shingles

    • RHO

      That isn’t it at all. It is the cost. When you have to borrow an extra 30K and pay interest on it the payback is far too long. People make rational decisions, these things don’t pay. I added insulation and installed new windows (did the labor myself), added a 95% efficiency furnace (got a deal on a last years model and had a friend in the business install it and a new scroll compressor AC unit), and my average utility bill on my 2100 square foot home is $135.00 a month. That makes more sense than spending 25 or 30K and financing it.

      • Aaron Browne

        You need to get in substantial debt in order to become independent of oil/fossile fules. If you do not want the debt then the 1% will not grant you solar power.

        • Col Angus

          Are you really that ignorant to think there are people out there that just grant solar power like so many toothfairies? It is simple economics.

      • Popeye

        Why are you heating hot water?

  4. Eric

    I’ll make sure to install solar panels on my roof top.

  5. Jeff Irish

    The four person installation crew in your residential picture is not wearing fall protection and the ladder does not extend at least 3 feet above the roof edge; both OSHA violations. PV is a new industry and needs the support of respected companies like GE to help instill safe work practices.

    • OSHA Inspector 48631684

      I noticed that too. First was the weird colored outfits, next was fall protection, next the ladder. And final the possible immigration infringement of the fifth guy. Solar is great! I want some more.

      • huckfinnguy

        Wow! So you must be a magician or psychic to be able to tell a person’s immigration status just by looking at them! On the other hand, you could just be a bigot who thinks that only Caucasians deserve to be citizens. Which is it?

        • T-Hoey

          pretty sure that immigration comment was meant as joke. Gezz lighten up.

          I’m an agent for a major insurance company and what most people don’t realize is the cost of insuring your roof with photo-voltaic shingles increases the value aprox.40,000.00 to your home as far as rebuild is concerned. (and that is a small home say about 1000 sq feeet) This can increase the amount you pay each year on your insurance by as much as 50%.

          Plus insurance companies will only insure the roof with Actual Cash Value NOT replacement cost..so if the roof is only a few years old and weather damages it you could possibly be out thousands of dollars.

        • Jdoty

          ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE!! MAYBE AT YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY!! I HAVE CUSTOMERS WHO INSURE THIER 50K SOLAR SYSTEMS FOR LESS THAN 265. PER YEAR, AND IF YOU LEASE, SOALR COMPANIES PAY FOR THE INSURANCE FOR 20 YEARS.
          MISINFORMATION IS WHAT KILLS DEALS!!!

      • Capt36

        Hey Jeff & the OSHA guy…. Let us hope you guys pay more attention to your work & families, than you do to a picture…

        This installation is in Asia, not the USA…… DOH!

        You probably don’t like the elimination of energy-wasteful lighting either…., or keeping your car’s tires at the correct pressure….

        Get with the eco-program, and quit your bitching about ‘why not’… Your kind IS TH PROBLEM! The solution is available to each & every home owner… You apartment folks are screwed, since the landlords do not care AT ALL about your utility costs….

        You are all a product of the GOP and the me-me-ME! generation…..

    • JB

      Hey Jeff Irish,

      They look Chinese to me, unloading there cheap solar panels that have thrown US companies into chapter 11

      • huckfinnguy

        Racist much?

    • STEVE

      It’s OK because those workers are actually undocumented day laborers. It’s not like they are real people. If one of them slips, the foreman will fire him before he hits the ground.

    • Thomas

      ODD, Why do you assume this installation is in the United States? The picture is not captioned not is it inferred that it represents anything other than an illustration. OSHA rules do not apply to other countries.

  6. Jay

    Micro inverters are the future of residential solar but are still exspensive around 400 dollars per 2 panels for max output of 380 Watts ac replace those every 15 years.As for solar being cheaper than it has ever been if you make them in china not even they need to come down in price to about 260 dollars per 230 watt panel to be cost efficient.Every roof is different so it will be a custom install to alighn the proper angles and face true magnetic south Installers arent getting as rich as you might think corporations are making profits manufacturing of 45% to 65% or they wouldnt be makeing them.

  7. Ray M.

    I am VERY interested in SOLAR ELECTRIC packages. I am prepared to act now to contract for SOLAR Power.

  8. Nicole Burns

    I am an attorney in Massachusetts trying to help people with residential and solar installations. It is already quite feasible in Mass, but still the high cost can be daunting. I would be very interested in helping spread this project to Massachusetts. GE- contact me!

    • Jay

      I saw your post and I am looking to hep small business coordinate renewable energy with my small law firm.

      Get in touch – Jay

  9. JB

    Are the panels strong enough to resist hail / wind debris damage during hurricane season in the south east?

  10. John Harrington

    I would like to oparticipate in this project. I would like information how to get these solar panels on my home. I live in the town of Malta near the NYSERDA STEP Park.

  11. Frank

    I would be very interested in this myself. I have a 200 year old house that i’m trying to make more efficient. GE is building a new solar panel factory not too far from here.

  12. amelia

    It is cost effective for homeowners who will own their homes for at least ten years. This should be marketed to new or young families. If the home is sold, the new owner benefits big time. There are no new homes being bought right now, so these solar systems must be fitted onto existing homes. GE and the rest of the industry should do some serious marketing research into how to reach and sell this great product to the broad existing market. Solar is not being “plugged” properly. (Here’s a new “green” marketing business for someone to start!) For example, in existing developments, perhaps a cheaper package could be sold if ten homeowners or more sign on, say bringing the cost down to $18,000 instead of $20,000. The market is available, the industry just hasn’t figured out how to get to it. But with all due respect, GE has never been a company with big PEOPLE skills, anyway. Engineers are not known for their communication or people skills.

    • Keith

      Amelia,
      as a professional engineer I must disagree with your statement to the effect that engineers are not good communicators. Most engineers and scientists are able to communicate well with people having a good general education, The real problem in communication between the scientific and engineering community is two-fold:
      Commonly encountered technology has outstripped the understanding of the vast percentage of the public in general.
      The poor level of education that has become the norm at far too many US schools, particularly in the fields of basic mathematics and sciences.

      Too many schools are “graduating” a substantial percentage of semi-literate young people due to absurdly misguided policies and practices; practices often driven by parents unable to accept that their child has little academic ability or that well verified scientific material contradicting biblical tradition is highly likely to be correct. A large percentage of these “graduates” are unable to read or write beyond a very basic level, are unable to perform simple arithmetic tasks without the aid of an electronic calculator, have little if any comprehension of basic science and are imbued with an amount of personal hubris that is astonishing.

      The situation is not improved by the vast amount of disinformation being propagated via “popular” magazines, newspapers, television, radio, internet etc. disinformation intended to prevent the general public from understanding that the scientific process is rigorous, data based and subject to critical analysis by a well informed, worldwide, scientific community.

      Attempting to explain the time value of money over a twenty year pay-back period is a little difficult if the pupil cannot understand the elementary arithmetic involved!

      • Dandy Don

        Your comment is well taken. As the father of two aeronautical engineers, I was amazed how my anglo Saxon sons were in the minority at.their University composed mostly of foreign (Chinese, Indian and Arab) students. My sons were not educated in the Us and that accounts for their math and science skills. International rankings of students in math and science show that the Us is below average. it seems reality TV is America’s number one concern.

        • Chris F

          Yes, the US public education system is crap. I speak as an MIT trained engineer with two sons currently at MIT. By trying to make sure everyone graduates we have lowered the standards. A Bachelor’s degree is now the equivalent of a high school diploma 70 years ago. I see my neighbors’ kids coming home with a bachelor’s degree from the local state university and they cannot find employment. I see my sons getting summer jobs that pay $25,000 for 10 weeks work as “interns”. Real engineers sought out by real companies that need them.

          In terms of solar, my opinion is that it is just too costly on a per watt basis right now. When you have to get government incentives and take out a 20 year loan to go solar, it proves that the technology is just not there yet. It may never be there. I live in the Deep South. AC units suck down the power. Here, the highest SEER AC unit you should put in to get your money back is 16. That being said, I have 19 SEER units. My energy bills are lower, but I will never get paid back in full.

          Is the consumer who signs up for the loan package going to get a buyer who is willing to take over the payments. The answer is probably not. Most people do not stay in the same home for 20 years. The average time people own a specific home is 5-7 years.

          Rather than looking to “Go Green” by installing solar panels with long payback periods, look for savings in electricity elsewhere. I have high use lights that are on 10 hours per day. I “invested” in LED bulbs. The payback period is 1.7 years even at my low cost of $0.07 per kwh. If I sell my house, I can unscrew the bulbs and take them with me. I changed from an electric water heater to gas. Payback period about 6 months (old water heater was leaking). The gas water heater cost a bit more, I had to have a roofer vent it and the plumber run the gas line 10 ft.

    • Dave

      amelia – I am sorry you had such a bad experience with GE and engineers to comment in such a negative way. My experience with GE, GE engineers, and engineers in general is quite different from yours. My experience has been very positive.

      Power costs (power generation, transmission, distribution, associated real estate) are based on capital cost (purchase price and financing), plus operating costs (fuel & maintenance).

      Free solar fuel is wonderful. The conversion of sunlight energy to hot water energy is good, so many could retrofit hot water or pool heating to solar.

      And the conversion of sunlight to electricity has been done. The investment needed to make solar generated electricity is very high. If it was cheap, all the electric utility companies would buy solar grids, and just sell you delivered power, as they do now for gas, steam, and hydro generated power.

  13. R Wood

    I have a solar electric system that works very well. Now I don’t pay for electricity. If I were to do it again, I would have installed a smaller system. This because electricity is sold in tiers. The more you use the more it costs. Putting in a solar system that just covers the top 2 tiers will pay back much faster than trying to cover all of ones needs. This issue was never brought up by the installer. All of my friends are put off by the costs of solar. However, when I explain that when one’s goal should be just the top tiers, then their interest picks up and they see the benefits. If the solar industry concentrated on this issue, they would probably have more customers.

    • Brian Sumpter

      Excellent point! Cost effectiveness is the goal!

    • GE solar panels

      Your point is well defined and covers not just homeowners concern! If contractors and builders take this seriously they could become profitable businesses. There is a dis-connect between almost everybody starting with the home owner in association with contractor, the contractor and the solar panel manufacturer/vendor, and finally it is a good simple lesson to learn by GE themselves. Imagine building a roof with all kinds of materials that may or may not have a better seal or a better bonding with solar panels with the roof material? Ge could take charge of the entire planning of the roof with special concern to owners needs, ofcourse they will need to see the blue print of a new house per the architecture and the specifications from the structural engineer /contractor. (The need for how much hot water, the need for how many separate and exclusively controlled air-conditioning when and where needed), the need for power where and how much much 110 Volts needed and how much solar power is needed for 230 V

    • PG Mitchell

      Pleae explain a bit more about the “top 2 tiers”. I am very interested in this as I live in Ohio and my home is in the country and faces south and experiences a lot of sunshine. I’m heading for retirement in 5 years and am wondering if it would be suited for me seeing as I am positioning myself for retirement and probably less discretionary spending. What do you think?

  14. Robert Sheperd

    I think GE can cut the cost to around $15K for a 5kW system. I live in San Diego and would like to work with GE to prove out an easy-to-install mounting system.

  15. Scott V

    If they can get it down to $10K, I’ll think about it. $21,600 is still about a 10 year return on investment given my average bill and assuming that solar will provide 85% of my electricity needs means an 85% savings.

    • e sword

      i had solar panels installed on my home,3.4 kilowatts cost was 8,000 an i gave my green points to the solar co.which is solar city in southern ca.it has cut my bill by over 100.00 in summer.installation was professional.warranty is 20 yrs.even covers any roof leaks.i highly reccomend

  16. Jim

    You guys crack me up. Fall protection? ladders 3 feet above the roof line? Immigration violations??? LOL Nearly every roofing crew you see in San Diego is hispanic, and trust me, the deal the homeowner got for having that particular crew install their roof is not going to encourage them to report them to immigration. Nor will the neighbors since they’re mostly bleeding heart liberals who wouldn’t think of turning in poor downtrodden illegal Jose.

  17. Mark

    Its not cost effective even with a 20 year warranty. The cost at $21K is roughly the cost if you just paid your regular electric bill. The average life span of the cell is 15 years if it never gets broke. They need the price to be around $12k for the 5kW to be cost effective in the long run. You also need to remember they grid tie these, so if the power goes out you still don’t have power. For some crazy reason the government does not give rebates unless you do.

    You might also remember that if you install an off grid system. You need the added cost of batteries for the system. Include maintenance cost and the price gets even steeper as well.

  18. William A Nielsen

    I have 2k on my roof.I put 2k on my daughter’s . I helped with 2 10k on the shops roof! All working great DC is safer then AC.! All panels are low voltage . Its when you start snapping them together ,that you get high voltage.Micro inverters still add up & now its AC .We must get the cost down! I’m Plumber by tread & I have solar hot water My kids have solar hot (by me) Cheap to install,Big money maker, Big money saver By far more bang for the buck & The home owner can do it them self DIY DIY Bill Nielsen PS I like your small windmill wt the outer ring stater&rotor. what was it 5k?When is it coming on the mkt

    • Keith

      I do not know where you found the information that AC is more dangerous than DC, but it is incorrect. The single most significant factor in electrical safety is the amount of current that is impressed across the heart, frequency is irrelevant. Voltages as low as 48 volts can drive sufficient current to provide a fatal shock if the resultant current disrupts the operation of the heart’s “pacemaker” mechanism.

      • Chae

        Absolutely correct. It’s the arrhythmia that will kill you and it can be induced by less than 1 amp. The picture people have of death by electrocution, charred bodies and smoking hair, is dramatic but inaccurate.

      • philip di russo

        i have had a solar panel for hot water for many years. the first panel after awhile just blew and i had it replaced the insurance replace it. i was supposed to pay $500. i was with this ins. company for so many years and they waved the money i had to pay went .then the entire system and the insuance covered it with no pay for me also the entire system failed it was all replaced at no cost to me what so ever. i would like to go completely solar for the entire house .i’m 85+years old sure would like to go entire house system. can’t do it on ss .

  19. Ed in Florida

    Been there done that! Had a Solar panel on my roof for 20 years. Hurricane Katrina broke the electric lines and a water pipe on the roof. Replacing the old 80 gal water tank in the near future and fixing the electric & water line on the roof did not seem worthwhile. Of course, this system ONLY provided hot water heated by the SUNSHINE. No INTENSE sunshine = NO HOT WATER. Cold Winter days = NO HOT WATER. The system was good but not perfect. Paqssing CLOUDS also prevented the water from being heated. One downside = When the sun failed, my costly ELECTRIC had to heat 80 gals of water. (rather than the normal 30 gal tank of water) The MORAL OF THE STORY = SOLAR can work well in Florida & other SOUTHERN AREAS but in Massachusetts??? CAUTION!!!
    Ed (Born in Boston)

    • jim

      I’ve had a homemade solar hot water system for…um, about 25 years or so, and the only maintenance has been two drops of oil in the pump per year and one transistor (near miss lightning). Unfortunately I haven’t instrumented everything (might someday for fun), but we use half the gas of the other folks along the street. For the last 25 years. I’ll get a PV system when the costs come down some more. And I figure how to keep the snow off it.

  20. Dolan

    Not a chance until the cost of this system and the warranty improves. My annual electric run close to 4300 per year….with additional maintenance to the system thats an ROI in 9 years….just about he time the warranty runs out and it is time to put a new one in. No dice…however GE and the Obumbler administration know nothing about ROI….just ask them.

  21. SomeGuy InAz

    The way people move these days would make this kind of investment in a house a negative. Potential buyers would have to be solar believers, and the added cost would not be welcomed. Anyone who isn’t going to be their home for about 20 years is crazy to invest in this system.

  22. Wavejmpr

    Solar power as a source of electricity is not ready for prime time. Otherwise it would have happened already. However, building your home to take advantage of the sun is worth while. I fee sorry for all those folks that invested in this under the idea it would help the environment. It has done liitle if nothing to help except for those companies that build and install them. So put white shingels on your house, plant shade trees and angle your house towards the sun for passive solar heat. That works and is easy to maintain.

    • Randall Jones

      Several issues: mainly, you are correct; the application needs to be “regionalized” for maximum benefit. What works in the south won’t necessarily work efficiently in the northeast. My beef is that large companies like GE will take a small idea that works great, but if they have to pay for a patent they have to weigh the costs over a period or return, so many great ideas (like th 100 mpg auto) don’t get built, either due to marginal returns, or a greedy inventor, or both. Sometimes these companies have just invested too much in existing technology to not see it through to fruition. THat makes them look like “greedy businesspeople” but nothing is free!

      SOmetimes we have to start our own little backyard companies to show the big guys where its at!

  23. w. peter crombie

    I would certainly be interested in learning more of the technical specs There is no doubt that we spend more to offset the sun’s heat than than use it to our advantage. In Forida all water heaters should have an outdoor componant that passively pre-heats the water.
    As to the OSHA INSPECTOR I would ask if he has read any of the latest concerns about job criplling Fed Regs.. To enhance his understanding I would suggest he listen to Kris Kristofferson sing “We take our own chances and pay our own dues” Enjoy your early retirement..

    • ed moon

      Peter Crombie, your early retirement won’t be so much fun if you’re crippled or dead. What’s wrong with sensible safety measures?

  24. Wm Meredith

    I wish there were cheaper, easier options encouraged by governmental use (schools, buildings) and policy here in SC where I am.

  25. DockyWocky

    Will GE promise to pay some taxes on it’s solar power installations?

  26. Mike Brosch

    We should be putting our dollars into fusion reactors and not this starry eyed mother earth nonsense.

    • Keith

      In the 1950s’ fusion reactors were the way to go and were to produce “electricity too cheap to meter” It was estimated at the time that this utopian situation was about twenty-five years in the future. Sixty years later, controlled fusion reactors are still twenty-five years in the future, that is the present situation after the expenditure of billions of dollars internationally. Forget controlled nuclear fusion as the source of cheap electricity during your lifetime.

  27. Habib

    The “average” homeowner only keeps his home around 7 years. The payback on these systems doesn’t work mathematically for those who anticipate moving. There are also many LOW TECH approaches that cost much less and while they wont save 75 percent of a homeowners bill, make much more sense from a cost basis, both upfront and on-going.

  28. dave bamford

    If cost were the only consideration, people wouldn’t waste energy to begin with. Conservation is the easiest way to save $, but try getting people to change their habits and give up their enjoyable/convenient/comfortable lifestyle-enhancing electronics. I’ll wait . . .

    I applaud GE’s efforts at simplifying installation. The industry has been too focused on the utility side, and not enough on the customer side. As a homeowner, I should be able to screw a few panels onto my roof, plug them into a smart electric meter, and be done. Anyone who doesn’t take the steps to shift at least a portion their own energy use to renewables has no freedom to complain about gas prices, oil wars, or pollution.

  29. Tom Walczak

    I read above about some of the people using solar for heating their water. I changed over from regular gas water heaters to on demand water heater (gas) whole house unit. Have saved around $2160 in three years which recouped the cost of the unit and installation. Now only pay around $15 per month to heat my water. I know I am not off the grid but I am saving natural gas and monthly costs for me.

  30. bob

    This green solar stuff is driven by Obama. Look at the nice $500,000 loan to a failing solar company. Of course other companies pick up on this and want their share of the (scam) pie.

    • John

      I love it when every one blames Obama for every sparrow that falls. We don’t hear much about the $ 1,000,000,000 blown in Iraq by the other guys. That is all forgotten due to our great attention span. Turning off the light switch, turning down the thermostat by a couple of degrees and minimizing obvious opportunities for heat to escape is still the best “ROI”

      • Kirk

        You’re missing some zeroes on the Iraq cost.

  31. Gil Seiler

    If I could get solar for $15,000 and a interest free loan for 15 years, I would just break even. I have been

    checking on the price of solar for that length of time and for me it is not cost effective. I have a very well i

    insulated house and even with the use of AC in the summer and heat at 73 in the winter, my level cost

    from PG&E is $91 – $100 a month. I think the cost has to come way down before many people in todays

    economy will opt to spend money without seeing some real instant return.

  32. Trends

    Solar panels are becoming very trendy, but the technology is in its infancy. Being only 14 to 18 percent efficient in transforming solar energy into AC power is not very enticing considering the environmental and health hazards. Fire fighters trying to enter the roof in the event of a house fire are very susceptible to electrical shock during daytime fires, increasing entry times by having to cover/remove the panels. Our municipal planning board has been informed of cadmium being used in some of the solar panel materials from a company in China. The municipality is also being inundated with requests from companies to install “solar farms.” These installations cover 10s to 100s of acres of open farm fields, thus reducing the actual farming practice and creating effective impervious coverings on the fields from the panels. Stormwater runoff from the panels hits the ground, destabilizing the topsoil and causing very intense runoff flows during even moderate storm events. The greater flows and soils load enter adjoining streams, filling in the channel and creating less cross-sectional area for the flow. In a year, or less, the sediment deposited in the stream channel blocks the normal flow route, causing the flow to recreate the necessary cross-section by eroding the stream banks and continuously recycling this problem downstream. Just my thoughts, be careful with your decisions.

    • Jazzerr

      Trends,
      Many PV modules contain cadmium, but not in its elemental form, it is combined with other elements. Think of table salt NaCl. Sodium, in its elemental form will kill you, Cloride will also kill you. Put the two together and sprinkle it on your french fries. While no one would advocate sprinkling CdTe on you fries, there is a big difference between them and just Cd.
      A typical free field solar farm covers about 40% of the ground with glass, contrast this to a parking lot or building. Every free field farm that I have seen has storm water retention ponds that hold the water and the sediments from anything that runs off the field.
      You and your town council should really educate themselves.

  33. Neal Asher

    I’ve been getting solar bids, and they’re quite high, so I’ve been looking around. The price for four 240 watt panels and four industry standard microinverters is about $2800. That’s about 1 kw, and they plug into a wall outlet, and 10% of that is shipping. That’s for new high quality panels and inverters delivered to your door within a few days.

    That’s $14k for 5kw, add $6k for installation and permits for a total of $20k, lower than Mr Korman’s goal. Then subtract 30% for rebates and you’re back at $14k, $2.80 per watt. That’s much lower than the bid I got today for a smaller system which was $5.80 per watt after rebates using the same inverters but including monitoring. A good location could make 2 kw/hrs per year per watt installed, expensive power is 20 cents per kw/hr, so at that price it would pay off in 7 years. Faster with a tracker. Some people have plenty of land for solar, and 85% of big commercial solar uses trackers, but the solar installers I’ve talked to have no idea about them.

    I looked at the list of building permits issued in San Diego county (not last week, exactly one solar project, on the roof of the office of a trailer park.

    Mr Korman’s $4 – $4.50 per watt goal isn’t ambitious enough. A reasonable price is $3 per watt, $15k for 5kw, or $3.30 per watt with a tracker. There’s a huge potential market out there, and GE should be filling it, not homemade trackers that blow away. As prices continue to drop the market will get larger. Your program is for roof mounts, but if you’d like to expand into rural installations I’m ready now, and I’m in San Diego, feel free to contact me.

    • Tom

      You can buy Trina 240 for about 450 a panel; which is what I purchased them for; though a little lite… call Trina direct. GE is producing cheaper panels in my opinion. You can install your system with a good roofer and electrician. You don’t need the solar guy; whom will &*%$ you for another 100 percent. After your system is up; hire a professional to do maintenance if you like; which is the route I took. You can put up a no frills 5 KV system for a little over 10K. A hybrid for around 20K. Beware of the large corporations bearing gifts and good luck.

  34. Rea

    A prime potential consumer is people in Southwestern States. The electric bills for air conditioners can be astronomical for 5 to 6 months desert/semi-desert areas. These customers would experience a faster pay off.

  35. RL Applegate

    Anytime solar power starts to look good, it is most likely because you can’t do simple math. A rough guideline for solar power is about 30 cents a KWH where as commercial is about 8-9 cents on average. And then there is the upkeep on solid state inverters, batteries (if used) and the cells themselves.

    Unless you have no commercial power available, your solar investment is better off in heating water or the dwelling directly. With the amount of solar energy that strikes the Earth every day, electricity should be free by now.

    • Mr. Moo

      Over 25 years my system is going to cost ten cents per kWh…that’s not including the SREC that I’ll get paid, but does include degredating power output. I tell people I have “prepaid” my electricity. I know that in the future PV will be less expensive. As more folks get solar the price will decrease as the cost of power continues to increase. Ten years ago I told my self to wait and it would be less expensive. If I had hit the “Go” button then … my system would be paid off about now.

  36. Dan Magyar

    The article has an Intriguing catch to it, that of reducing the cost of the installation, but as an Electrical contractor in the business, I don’t see any of the savings you think possible. As I (read the contractor doing the installation) still has to: purchase, transport, insure and store the expensive panels, then install without damage those same panels on the roof, & work on the roof, and most importantly deal with the inspection department of the different locals where the installs occur. By using the “micro” inverters you’re not saving on either the installation or the cost as both are about the same cost from the distributor. And ultimately either scheme still has to connect to the owners electrical panel, where then we have to deal with the whim of the utility provider regarding their local specific connection protocol. Then we provide and fill out for the homeowner the myriad of rebate, and permit forms necessary for the connection. Sorry I don’t see any savings without reducing the overall cost of the panels and inverters whatever form they take, and reducing the amount of paperwork necessary for the systems permit and rebate approvals.

  37. Russell L. Shaeffer

    Have all the people going nuts. The sun goes down every night here in Ohio. we need to develope better battery back up. Same for the Cars they are pushing or will be pushing. We need all these things at a reasonable COST. WE need nateral gas and OIL now. Get the EPA and Serria People off our back and get this country going again. 78 and not counting.

  38. Jack Dawson

    Just installed a SolarCity 4.6kW DC system (~3.6kW AC) for about $3.10 per DC Watt ($3.96 per kW AC @ 3600 Watts Delivered). In my package I get maintenance for 20 years, monitoring, output guarantees, property insurance coverage, two inverters over the life of the system and a 7 year payback.

    People here are acting like we always buy things that have a payback or need to be economic. That is foolish – you buy a brand new car and it loses 20% of its value one second after you sign the papers. I buy solar and one second after installation (assuming daylight) and I am saving/making money. Also, the part of the roof that is covered by panels is going to last longer and keep my house cooler (much, much cooler).

    Also the time value of money – I don’t pay PG&E but once a year – so the 2,500 that I don’t spend on electricity each year coupled with the fact that I only pay them 500 or so per year for all my power, I have a fixed rate for 70-80% of my power bill, all this together makes complete sense.

    So no matter the payback – the second I turn on the system I make money – the panels are warranteed for 25 years – and I get one bill a year.

    It is a home run investment – of all the things that people buy and this 15,000 investment which paybacks every cent I invest in perpetuity – and people can’t find and extra 15K to eliminate their power bills.

    If I could have built a system (roof was too small on the west/south side) that would have provided 100% of my power I would have paid the extra for it – I would never have a PGE bill again.

    People wake up.

    • Barb F

      You must be one of the lucky ones to have a job in this lousy economy.

      Are you a government employee? One of the 49% that don’t pay taxes? or ???

      How can anyone afford to upgrade to solar while it is currently doubtful that they will even be able to keep their house?

  39. Rick

    The increasing cost of installations is the regulations. I put up a solar water heater that uses vacuum tubes and it provides over 80% of my hot water for free. The issue with getting a rebate on it entailed sitting at the city permit office trying to get the permits for 3 hours. It needs a plumber, an electrician, and a structural engineer to determine if the roof can stand the incredible 80 pound weight. Otherwise you can put it flat on the roof and not need the structural.
    Those tankless are being installed but they need to be descaled every year or their efficiency drops. Roof mounting brackets are hard to find and expensive (unless $100 plus for mounts is cheap). The regulations of requiring SG300 rated systems only increase the price and reduce the available products. It takes about 2 years and $30k to test a system so only a few manufacturers are doing that. My solar cost $1500 with shipping. My propane used to cost $350 per year for my hot water. A SG300 system installed is about $6000 less the rebates. The SG300 will need yearly maintainance to descale. This system has 75 feet of copper inside the 80 gal tank to heat the water. Since the temp of the hot loop is only 12 degrees above the water temp in the tank it doesn’t create the scaling problems. Upstate NY has whole houses heated with these type of tubes. They work even with 3/8″ of ice on them below freezing.
    The subsidies to oil companies through tax breaks exceeds the total commitment to alternative energy. Remember that all the oil and gas was created from solar energy and converted to these concentrated forms over eons. What is alternative about it. Every ranch in Texas has a windmill to pump water 100 years ago. The cost of energy is subsidized in the US by the military budget.
    To get things in perspective, the sun dumps more energy in 2 hours onto our planet than all the power produced vial all forms in a year. Yet we ABSOLUTELY BELIEVE that using solar energy for energy directly without gas lines and power lines the normal way.
    Check out the technology of Nanosolar, sunmaxx, and windtronics. GE has some cool inverters and would help with making solar tubes like they used to in flurouescent lights. The tubes absorb 97% of the UV light and convert to heat. They cost $10 per tube from China. 25 of them will heat the water for most residences.
    The US will spend how much this year on Gas Exploration subsidies and OIL subsidies and war in IRAQ (check on Haliburton) and Afganistan, and now Libia. How much on (alternative? energy?)
    THINK!!!

  40. Rivenburg

    One of the things not mentioned here so far is the increase in hail damage in most parts of the USA. AS we move into different weather configurations due to natural changes the hail has become larger and more damaging in many areas that previously had little massive hail.
    With this to deal with, trackers that quickly flip 180 degrees to protect the panels when they sense hail (by the sound of it hitting) are needed. If the solar panels were built in narrow strips instead of large rectangles it would be FAR easier to design trackers that could also protect the panels. This would also facilitate replacing the panels if they get damaged, the narrow strips would be cheaper, easier to handle for one person & be far less dangerous electricaly. IMHO the panels are too big now to effectively flip them over to protect them, they are sails at that point waiting to fly away in the storm winds. Most trackers Ive seen eventually get damaged here in AZ from the wind. Also the smaller the tracker units the more modular the whole concept can become, the more pre-packaged it can be instead of custom.

  41. jacquie fedorke

    They are Chinese, and GE went to China. The CEO is in bed with Obama, they’re working together.

    • Matthew Van Dusen

      Actually they’re Japanese. And this has absolutely nothing to do with GE in China.
      Editor

  42. Robert Sheperd

    Costco, Lowes, and Home Depot will all have 5kW DIY solar systems that cost less than $15K soon. Installation requires an electrician to do the final hookup but homeowners should be able to do the rest. The federal ITC of 30% is good through 2016, so the final cost should be around $12K, even with permitting and final hookup costs. For PG&E and SDG&E customers, payback should be 5-10 years, depending electricity rates.

  43. cwan

    I think GE is hitting the problem right on: the installation cost is too high. I believe only when they come up with a kit than enable DIY, so owners themself would be able to put it on their property, the mass adoption will become reality in this country.

  44. RS

    A $21600 up front purchase requires $900 per year to pay back the INTEREST alone.

    In San Diego, one of the sunniest spots with the highest electric rates, these panels will only generate $900 per year in power according to the federal PVWATTS solar calculator.

    Forget maintenance, forget actually paying back the invested money, or replacing the panels which have less than a 30 year life.

    These improved panels can barely pay the interest alone on the money used to install them.

    Let’s get another 2x cost improvement to $10,000 installed and then we can talk.

  45. John

    I looked at solar 5 years ago when I built my home near Richmond, VA. What made it cost-prohibitive for me was the $10,000 cost to connect my system to the grid.

    • larry Korte

      Virginia law changed the connect policy across the state. Free connect now. Grid-tied. Just installed PV May 2011 & grid-tied.

  46. Keith B. ROsenberg

    The cost needs to be dropped by 90%. Make a solar installation cheaper per kWh than fossil fuel and you wil;l have something you can sell by the million. Cover all parking lots, freeways and rooftops!

  47. GE solar panels

    GE need to take control of projects if they want to remain competitive.
    When someone builds a new building, a house or even a prefab structure, GE could offer to give them an estimate of the entire roof with built in panels (ofcourse upon submitting house plans).
    Later GE could go further with bolder building plan options.

  48. dave

    This foolishness would not exist without gubbament subsidies. And companies like GE love to feed at the trough. Our government taxation and spending is out of control because of boodoggles like solar, ie obama and Solyndra.

  49. being human

    Didn’t GE move all their plants to Mexico?
    now they want to cut the cost of labor installation in the USA?
    Why would anyone do business , with them.
    why don’t they cut the profit on the system so the labor costs can stay at mininum wage.

    • Matthew Van Dusen

      I think you’ve missed the point.

  50. jefro

    It takes more energy to create a PV panel than will ever be returned. Until a much more resource friendly way to create PV cells they will not save our planet. Please stop building them. They are good only for places where economical power is not available such as remote cabins or ships or such.

    • Jazzerr

      You are Wrong Jefro, A First Solar module pays back the power in less than 6 months

  51. Harold Stopher

    Built a solar heated house in 1978, 2500 sq ft, hot air system in Illinois. 400 sq ft of panels painted black, panels would get to 156 degrees, with the air coming off of them at 120 degrees, 2 1/2 HP blowers, that is when it is 0 degrees outside. This air went to 85 tons of river washed stone in the basement. my highest bill for a winter month was $100.00. Due to the 23% interest rates, I lost everything. The house was designed for solar heat, 9 inch thick exterior walls, triple glazed windows, 13 inches of insulation in the attic. It cost me about $5,000.00 extra to build.

  52. Matthias Heinze

    First Solar must be bankable, that is, it must deliver a specific performance over its lifetime and that lifetime should be (and is in some cases) 30 years. PV degrades over time but to limited degree. We have tested these systems in Tempe for a long time and we certify them for use in the US. The biggest potential for savings comes from installations with minimal work and bureaucratic intervention. GE is rightly trying to standardize, but we need to standardize all installations so that local inspectors can readily sign off on these plans (i.e. at lower cost). The technology is improving quickly but we need unified “acceptable” installation guidelines acceptable to all inspectors (beyond the NEC) and long term financing. The cost is vastly lower for new installations (e.g. in Israel Solar water heaters are a requirement) and community installations. Solar contributes in many ways to energy security, democratization of energy and especially the electrical network because it can be installed anywhere (where there is demand).

  53. Cy Kohlbeck

    GE is in Obama’s pocket. Immeldt feeding at the trough as he likes to do. There will never be enough sales of solar as long as it is not economical enough to stand on its own feet. Subsidies do not count in ROI. Get real!! The government can not pay for everybody’s heating bills. GE must get smart and develop something of value. Now they haven’t. It’s still too expensive in general, except perhaps San Diego. y neighbor installed a simple box with pipes on his roof 25 years ago for $6000. He was an environmentalist and anything was better than gas. Objective people have to have payback or it isn’t worth it. Without subsidies. Many real Americans don’t believe in subsidies as if everybody got them, then the increased taxes would still be added to the installation bill. The figures just don’t add up.FinanceMgr

  54. K Jordan Ironton Ohio

    I just put on new metal roof on a 2200 sq foot 1 story ranch in southern Ohio. I would love to use solar panels but cannot find anyone near here educated enough to supply and install. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    • Chris

      To find an installer I suggest going to Cleanenergyauthority.com and searching for installers that service your county in Ohio.

    • John Evangelisti

      Try Frazee (not sure about spelling) in Williamsburg.

  55. nofreewind

    5KW at 15% ave output should create about 428 kWhr’s per month. Take 35K and take a 6% 25yr mortgage out for $225/month. So we are talking 50 cents /kWhr wholesale. I pay 12 cents retails. And this doesn’t account for the spinning reserve and backup that must be taken into account for an intermittently cloudy day. Solar is one of the biggest scams going. It is a shame that 99% who read this article will think solar is getting competitive. The amount of fossil fuel used to produce these panels is very likely far in excess of what they theoretically save.

  56. Barb F

    Someone missed the point.

    When G.E. sent their solar jobs to China to make solar products that cost half as much, they also sent the prosperity that allows Americans to buy solar. We can’t buy anything when we don’t have jobs.

    G.E. needs to peddle their cheap solar products to China where they have the jobs to afford them.

  57. Michael Fulks

    I sold/installed solar hot water systems in Arkansas in the early 80′s while we had the solar tax credit to help offset the costs. These were the AO Smith units that used a closed loop system and worked very well on cloudy days, not just the sunny ones. Many people overlook the fact that water is heavy. If you’re pumping water up into a roof system to heat it directly you need larger pumps to handle the 8 lbs per gallon weight. A closed loop system can be run with a pump that uses the same power as a 75 watt light bulb. Frankly, the return from using a water based heat pump is a better bet than moving all your water across your roof.
    Now I live in Oklahoma and with a 1600 square feet area on my south facing roof I would enjoy using a PV system but until the costs come way down you are still better investing in insulation, shade and other proven techniques.

  58. Gary

    Wow. My head is spinning from all the misinformation. I’ll try to cut into it a little.

    Solar install costs are between $4-$5 a watt residential. Large commercial and utility can come in under $3. Cells don’t die in 15 years. Well made panels, which there are many, will continue to produce energy at over 80% of their original output 25 years after installing. Insurance rates usually don’t go up or if they do it is minimal. Solar panels will do better in hail storms than your roof. Most residential systems will have a “payback” of 6-10 years after you figure in federal and local incentives as well as local utility rates. Commercial systems are better after you account for depreciation. Even a 10 – 15 year payback is a pretty good ROI. And don’t try to say that solar needs to be cost effective without tax credits and incentives. The fossil fuel industry has had them forever and no one seems to want to take them away. Eliminate all energy incentives (including the cost of war and pollution) and solar becomes the best investment.

    Let’s not try to cloud the issue with untruths put out by the competing fossil fuel industries who hire “experts” to spread propaganda. PV efficiencies are improving and the cost to produce PV is coming down but its time has come and we need to “go solar” now and quit making excuses to put it off.

  59. steve

    I have a small cabin with a single solar panel kit I bought on amazon for just a few hundred dollars. It feeds two marine deep cycle batteries from Costco and an off-the-shelf 2500 watt (5000 watt surge) power inverter I also got at amazon for $105 (all with free shipping mind you). The lights in the cabin are 12v DC LED lights (requires no inverter). When I want to use the microwave, Senseo coffee maker, hot plate, TV/DVD, or toaster oven I just flip the switch on the inverter and use them. (can only use one at a time but that’s not hard to do). I also charge my laptop, cell phone etc with it. My entire solar “system” cost me less than $600 and powers my entire cabin, however I designed the cabin with off grid in mind. It is entirely lit by daylight by day, and LED lights at night. I’ve never had to replace anything.

  60. william raby

    first of all you need to build a system that is not outragously high to you it is all about profit what about the people? these cost can be cut a lot more than you are saying the average person can’t afford this and financing is out of the question what do the average AMERICAN get from this?

  61. Phil Bertoli

    Solar is almost worthless. Most electricity use is at night – no sun for solar.

    Like the electric car – solar is only good for GE and those who sell the systems.

    And, have a hail storm, and kiss your investment goodbye.

  62. TJ McGrath

    I am intriqued that Syracuse, NY is a site selected by GE and NYSERDA. I have over 40 years experience in the energy arena from steam to solar. Over 25 years ago I was with a utility experimenting with earth coupled heat pumps and solar in upstate NY, NYSERDA, USDOE and a consortium of electric utilities were partners along with many manufacturers in this iniative. Syracuse NY was determined to have the lowest exposure to beneficial sunlight, not only in NY but the entire Northeast. I’d be interested in knowing what has changed.

  63. Peter wendt

    All of this is nothing new. Solar panels, tracking panels, panels for heating pools, etc. There were great federal rebates years ago, providing about 1/2 the cost. Most everyone by now has removed those systems, as the savings on power wasnt very good, and the eye sore that they provided. Then the roofs needed to be redone after years and the panels are in the way. I know, as i serviced this equipment. There has to be a fairly quick payback period on this stuff before roofs and maintenance problems start to become an issue.

  64. Pete Greyghost

    Several years ago, the University of South Africa invented a solar film that could be made in rolls, just like paper and would provide sufficient power for the average home for less that $800!
    their idea was to provide power for remote areas where it is wan cost effective to build power lines. Unfortunately, the patent was bought up by a company in Germany and the cost escalated from $800 to over $8,000 instantly. Also,, the company refuses to sell to individuals and will only entertain bids from companies that wish to purchase a franchise for manufacturing rights!
    What had started as humanitarian idea has become the tool of corporate greed, just as every other worthwhile discovery.

  65. Charlie Mathews

    Have the perfect set-up, large south facing low-slope roof, strong enough, easy enough, open inside for wiring etc; etc;, perhaps G.E. would like to have a demo project built here. Come talk to me.

  66. Charlie

    Even at $21,600 the 2nd mortgage would be about $170 / month. Even with an electric water heater my electric bill is less than $120 / mo including taxes and other fees. And since the system still requires you on the grid, there will be certain minimum costs just to be connected to the grid, that will further drive up real costs. Get the cost down to $10k you might be talking.

  67. Caroline Muraya

    This is fantastic for Africa where a lot of homes have no access to electricity.

  68. Tony in Chicago

    Great that GE is working on lowering the cost of home solar power. It may not be the be all to end all, but every bit of progress helps.

  69. Dan Coakley

    I don’t see any discussion about homeowner association covenants. Many newer/nicer neighborhoods have covenants that restrict or forbid any solar or wind power on homes. I think there is a lot of potential for solar/wind power that needs to be tapped in these neighborhood to help bring down the costs.

    Can a federal law override covenants to allow homeowners the option to install solar or wind power?

  70. Don Carlsbad

    The top tier rate in San Diego is 31 cents per killowatt

  71. Jihn Bailo

    Solar alone cannot provide peak or baseload.

    We need a full conversion to hydrogen for storage and fuel cells for generation.

  72. Paul K

    A comment to: Paul Randall 1 month ago
    Look into ground source geothermal heat pumps for cooling.

    Geothermal sounds good, but I assume need long underground runs, thus an acre minimum for a 2,000 sqft house? And Companies like GE don’t sell a related project(?) so we’re stuck with advocates and education from Ag Extensions?

    Not bagging, just looking for a definitive or respected data sources.

    • James Hercules Sutton

      Geothermal tubes can be vertical, one for each 1/4 ton cooling capacity. Mine cost $10 per foot to drill four holes a decade ago, and went down 300 feet. The total installation paid for itself in five years, because energy costs went up. Geothermal is problematic for most existing housing–better for new construction, where cost can be spread over many years; same for solar electric. Installing these together in new construction is ideal. Note that geothermal generates hot water, in summer, and special utility rates apply, if house is all electric.

  73. Tim Lee

    Interesting comments. We have people with all kinds of agendas putting their 2 cents in. A lot of misinformation and some people providing good information which makes it very confusing.
    My Take on it. GE has an idea that it thinks will fill a need and that it thinks it can make a profit. It has decided to take a risk and spend the money to do the research to see if it’s assumptions are accurate and it can make a profit. Is PROFIT a bad word? I don’t think so, it is what the American system is built on, our society cannot exist without profit. Is this product good for everyone? Of course not, each individual is responsible for his/her decision to purchase this product based on their individual evaluation. Consumers generally act in their own good interest and GE may find that this product is not accepted by enough consumer that it cannot make a profit. At that point it will stop selling it and will take a loss. I hope that this product will lower cost but the consumer will make the final decision. If the product is successful than consumer and GE stockholder will benefit. If it not then GE and its stockholder will take the loss.

  74. econobiker

    “Txchnologist
    Sponsored By GE”

    ‘Nuf said about why GE is advertising it’s solution for solar.

    I’ve always wondered why hot water systems could not be supplemented by attic installed air heat exchangers during the summer with attics being so hot. Then if the temp got below a certain level the system would close and empty until the heat was back above the level for a certain amount of time.

    • Matthew Van Dusen

      ‘Nuf said indeed, Econobiker.
      That’s why there are disclosures all over the place.
      Ed.

  75. Dan Walker

    The problem with solar is the cost of installation, so why not develope a shared savings purchase program?

  76. Steve Studer Wilmington, NC

    So how does an engineer who’s worked for GE – Hitachi Nuclear Energy for 24 years get in on the Smart Grid Ready Residential Solar System test project like the one in Syracuse and Albany? Here in coastal Carolina we have plenty of sun to make electricty. I’ve been a big proponent of solar and wind enegry since my college days at Ohio State. Back then I made extra money putting up residential wind electrification units throughout northern Ohio. I’m currently involved with the local highschool’s EV project that is partially powered by large photo voltaic cells on the front lawn of the school.

  77. Katherine Mackenzie

    I live in the desert of California and have longed for a solar panel system to run my electricity; however, the exhorbinant costs have keep me from stalling one. If the prices do come down, it would be god-send. I currently pay between $200 – $300 per month due to my husband’s severe medical problems and the need to run medical equipment 24/7 at home. If GE ever wants a test home, feel free to contact me. In the early 80′s my husband and I rigged up solar heating for our built in pool when we lived in the city, it was great!

  78. Chris F

    Solar is not ready for prime time. It may never be ready. The average homeowner owns his home for 5-7 years according to the National Association of Realtors. So a 20 year loan for payback is not a wise investment. Will the buyer take over your payments? Not likely. Will they pay more for your home? Once again not likely.

    If the real goal is energy savings, build a home with insulated concrete forms. These homes are hugely energy efficient….so efficient that when calculating the size of AC/heater needed one needs to look at how many times exterior doors will be opened. Yes, it is more expensive to build, but return on investment is generally 3-5 years…..due to low heating/cooling energy bills. Since there is no wood, no termite, no wall cavities….no mold can grow. Very strong….probably could stand a major hurricane.

    Again, if the goal is to save electricity (rather than just promote solar electrical generation) using spray foam insulation during a stick-built home construction will lower energy consumption.

    My guess is that until prices reach a 5 year payback there will be no mass adoption of solar.

    • Really?

      The buyer won’t pay extra for a house that has solar panels? How can you say that with a straight face? If you have the choice between 2 identical cars and one costs 1000/yr for fuel and the other costs 50/yr for fuel due to some modification, wouldn’t you pay more for the car with the savings? I don’t mean paying 10,000 more, but a couple thousand shouldn’t be out of the question. The ROI would be in the 2 year range in this instance. The original owner would have taken the biggest “hit” by purchasing and installing the system. The buyer may not pay for the total investment, but I believe they would pay more to have a system that saves them money every month on their energy bill.

  79. Tom L

    $7 per installed watt?!? That means it would take a typical solar installation 60 years to break even, long after the panels have degraded into junk. I sure am glad the brilliant government keeps pumping billions into this boondoggle.

    • Levi

      I don’t know where you live, but here in Hawaii we have not only 320+ days of sunshine, but also the most expensive electricity in the country (over $0.41/Kw). The payback on solar is very fast, and if you use debt financing, it’s cash-flow-positive right out of the gate. Of course not every area in the US has as much sun, and the prices for energy on the mainland are significantly less, but it’s an indication of feasibility, especially when you realize that…

      1) Base energy prices will increase.

      2) Solar technology will evolve.

      3) Our dollar will eventually fall (and fall hard).

      Redo the math after the dollar drops, and oil is $500/barre (US)l, and you’ll see a very different picture. And remember how many of our tax dollars subsidize oil, coal, and gas; take those out of the equation and solar/heat-pumps/etc. start to look pretty good.

  80. Roger Wehage

    We need Solar Power Cooperatives. How many home owners are willing or able to shell out $20K and then annual maintenance and also risk major repair bills? Rural electric became feasible through cooperatives, and this is likely the only way solar power will become feasible. And why must panels be installed on rooftops? In a community, why not in an industrial area with power distributed through the grid. How many homeowners have a windmill in their backyards? Yet thousands of Megawatt windmills are going up every year. Let’s pay for and implement solar power the same way we pay for and implement wind power.

  81. jon elliott

    I currently heat and cool my pool with a simple solar heater made by by eco saver. installing two panels
    and running water through them 3 hours a day will keep the pool at 85 degrees until the end of October
    in Missouri. if I want it cooler I runs the system at night. due to extensive wiring and piping under my yard I had to go with an above ground pool 18 X 33 feet since I built a deck around it I was able to insulate the pool wall extending pool use from April to end of November. I am currently working on a design to use solar heat to heat a winter enclosure around my heat pump. Cheaper than putting in a new geothermal unit. by heating the pad my heat pump sets on I should be able to maintain 80 degrees in the day time and 50 degrees at night due to thermal mass. Since a heat pump is just an
    energy transfer unit (think AC in reverse) the net efficiency can be improved dramatically by heating the coils environment. An alternative is a simple glass box enclosure on the south side of the house
    that feeds by natural convection into a heat sink by closing the air vents at night, cooling of the heat sink is prevented. Insulating the roof of the attic space allows heat to be retained in the winter reducing overall energy use. by passively heating a large heat sink in the summer and drawing on that stored energy in the winter the only energy used is in the blowers that move the air. My last house was built to do just that In the summer I used a cooling tower to cool an antifreeze mix to cool the home easy to do in that location as I had a 3 acre lake to draw water from. A job change led to a newer home that is quite frankly an energy hog and difficult to retrofit. Solar panels are not a cost
    efficient method of producing energy, ad in the large banks of batteries required to store the electicity and inverters to convert it to AC current and the cost skyrockets. My camper is solar powered because on a small scale it works. I use a lithium bus battery pack to store energy and the whole thing runs on 12 volt DC current. The old gas LP or natural gas refrigerators were very energy efficient and rarely broke down or wore out, can’t get them for home use any more. I still have one in my shop that I run on wood gas generated by cooking scrap wood. My shop is insulated to the point it acts like a cave. I can heat the 3000 square feet with a small radiant heater. Use your own ingenuity and you can save thousands most of these ideas have been built already and are readily available on line. SIASSL

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